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	<title>Comments on: Titus 2:11 in Calvin</title>
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		<title>By: Phil Gons</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-26434</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Gons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 04:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice work, Robert. You&#039;ve illustrated nicely how all is always limited in some sense by its context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work, Robert. You&#8217;ve illustrated nicely how all is always limited in some sense by its context.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-24623</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/#comment-24623</guid>
		<description>Forensicsoftware...
Are you making a joke or are you serious?

All, is the word &quot;pas&quot; in Greek. Not only does it almost never &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; mean &quot;everyone who ever lived or will ever live&quot; but it can mean the following:

1) to totality with focus on its individual components, each, every, any

2) any entity out of a totality, any and every, every

3) marker of the highest degree of someth., all

4) to a high degree of completeness or wholeness, whole

5) everything belonging, in kind, to the class designated by the noun, every kind of, all sorts of,

Isn&#039;t that last one interesting...hmmm...every kind of, all sorts of, belonging to a class designated by the noun.


The fact is that &quot;all means all!&quot; is a naive statement.

In the book of Titus alone the word &quot;pas&quot; is used in several different ways...the context always dictating the meaning:

Titus 2:9
9 Slaves are to be subject to their own masters in &lt;b&gt;everything,&lt;/b&gt; to do what is wanted and not talk back, 

Here, it&#039;s used to say that slaves are to be subservient to their masters. Is it &lt;b&gt;REALLY&lt;/b&gt; everything that they&#039;ll ever do?

Titus 3:15

15 &lt;b&gt;Everyone&lt;/b&gt; with me greets you. Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you &lt;b&gt;all.&lt;/b&gt;

Here the group “everyone” is limited to those who are with Paul, and the “all” at the end is &lt;b&gt;NOT&lt;/b&gt; “everyone who ever lived or will ever live without distinction” 

Though both words are “pas” the context limits the scope of the word. The second “pas” is limited to the group he&#039;s writing to.


Titus 2:14
14 He gave himself for us to set us free from &lt;b&gt;every kind&lt;/b&gt; of lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are truly his, who are eager to do good. 


Here Christ gave himself to set us free from “all” or “every kind of lawlessness” depending on your translation. Is this every kind of lawlessness that ever could be conceived or is it speaking of “lots of different kinds of lawlessness?


Titus 2:15

15 So communicate these things with &lt;b&gt;the sort of exhortation or rebuke that carries&lt;/b&gt; full authority. Don’t let anyone look down on you.

Here it&#039;s talking about the kind of authority that Titus is supposed to communicate with.


Titus 3:2
2 They must not slander anyone, but be peaceable, gentle, showing complete courtesy to &lt;b&gt;all&lt;/b&gt; people. 

Are they &lt;b&gt;REALLY&lt;/b&gt; supposed to look in the Middle Eastern White pages and show courtesy to everyone on the planet or to the class known as all kinds of people without exception?


As you can see, Paul uses this word &quot;pas&quot; in several different ways in Titus alone, and context tells us what the scope is.

You have a preconceived idea that God wants everyone who ever lived on the planet or who will ever live on the planet, which colors your understanding of this word.

You have to let scripture tell you what the author intended, not read into it.

The fact is, that we use universal words in a limited context all of the time don&#039;t we?

Can you see that I just did that? I used the all inclusive word &quot;all&quot; but meant it in a more limited context...which meant &quot;many times&quot; didn&#039;t it? But you unconsciously knew from my context what I meant right?



does that make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forensicsoftware&#8230;<br />
Are you making a joke or are you serious?</p>
<p>All, is the word &#8220;pas&#8221; in Greek. Not only does it almost never <b>not</b> mean &#8220;everyone who ever lived or will ever live&#8221; but it can mean the following:</p>
<p>1) to totality with focus on its individual components, each, every, any</p>
<p>2) any entity out of a totality, any and every, every</p>
<p>3) marker of the highest degree of someth., all</p>
<p>4) to a high degree of completeness or wholeness, whole</p>
<p>5) everything belonging, in kind, to the class designated by the noun, every kind of, all sorts of,</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that last one interesting&#8230;hmmm&#8230;every kind of, all sorts of, belonging to a class designated by the noun.</p>
<p>The fact is that &#8220;all means all!&#8221; is a naive statement.</p>
<p>In the book of Titus alone the word &#8220;pas&#8221; is used in several different ways&#8230;the context always dictating the meaning:</p>
<p>Titus 2:9<br />
9 Slaves are to be subject to their own masters in <b>everything,</b> to do what is wanted and not talk back, </p>
<p>Here, it&#8217;s used to say that slaves are to be subservient to their masters. Is it <b>REALLY</b> everything that they&#8217;ll ever do?</p>
<p>Titus 3:15</p>
<p>15 <b>Everyone</b> with me greets you. Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you <b>all.</b></p>
<p>Here the group “everyone” is limited to those who are with Paul, and the “all” at the end is <b>NOT</b> “everyone who ever lived or will ever live without distinction” </p>
<p>Though both words are “pas” the context limits the scope of the word. The second “pas” is limited to the group he&#8217;s writing to.</p>
<p>Titus 2:14<br />
14 He gave himself for us to set us free from <b>every kind</b> of lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are truly his, who are eager to do good. </p>
<p>Here Christ gave himself to set us free from “all” or “every kind of lawlessness” depending on your translation. Is this every kind of lawlessness that ever could be conceived or is it speaking of “lots of different kinds of lawlessness?</p>
<p>Titus 2:15</p>
<p>15 So communicate these things with <b>the sort of exhortation or rebuke that carries</b> full authority. Don’t let anyone look down on you.</p>
<p>Here it&#8217;s talking about the kind of authority that Titus is supposed to communicate with.</p>
<p>Titus 3:2<br />
2 They must not slander anyone, but be peaceable, gentle, showing complete courtesy to <b>all</b> people. </p>
<p>Are they <b>REALLY</b> supposed to look in the Middle Eastern White pages and show courtesy to everyone on the planet or to the class known as all kinds of people without exception?</p>
<p>As you can see, Paul uses this word &#8220;pas&#8221; in several different ways in Titus alone, and context tells us what the scope is.</p>
<p>You have a preconceived idea that God wants everyone who ever lived on the planet or who will ever live on the planet, which colors your understanding of this word.</p>
<p>You have to let scripture tell you what the author intended, not read into it.</p>
<p>The fact is, that we use universal words in a limited context all of the time don&#8217;t we?</p>
<p>Can you see that I just did that? I used the all inclusive word &#8220;all&#8221; but meant it in a more limited context&#8230;which meant &#8220;many times&#8221; didn&#8217;t it? But you unconsciously knew from my context what I meant right?</p>
<p>does that make sense?</p>
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		<title>By: Forensicsoftware</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-24482</link>
		<dc:creator>Forensicsoftware</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 01:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/#comment-24482</guid>
		<description>ALL MEN, means all men. In Adam ALL died, so in Christ ALL shall be made alive. You say that the ALL men in Adam is universal. Question: what about than ALL will be made alive in Christ, is this also universal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ALL MEN, means all men. In Adam ALL died, so in Christ ALL shall be made alive. You say that the ALL men in Adam is universal. Question: what about than ALL will be made alive in Christ, is this also universal?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Gons</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-10974</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Gons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/#comment-10974</guid>
		<description>Nonsense. Calvin was perhaps the best exegete of his time. Arminius admitted as much. Finding the meaning of a text is not a matter of taking some English words and going with the first thing that comes to mind. There are hundreds of texts of Scripture that are mutilated because of such a naive strategy. We need more exegetes like Calvin in our day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nonsense. Calvin was perhaps the best exegete of his time. Arminius admitted as much. Finding the meaning of a text is not a matter of taking some English words and going with the first thing that comes to mind. There are hundreds of texts of Scripture that are mutilated because of such a naive strategy. We need more exegetes like Calvin in our day.</p>
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		<title>By: obsequium</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-10844</link>
		<dc:creator>obsequium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/#comment-10844</guid>
		<description>Calvin was a wicked man.

&quot;Yet he does not mean individual men, but rather describes individual classes, or various ranks of life.&quot;

His sin is thinking beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6). The text does not say this, so Calvin makes God a liar.

Here&#039;s a thorough article that goes through each of the five points of Calvinism, showing how Arminians and Calvinists both believe a false gospel: http://www.atruechurch.info/calvinarmin.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calvin was a wicked man.</p>
<p>&#8220;Yet he does not mean individual men, but rather describes individual classes, or various ranks of life.&#8221;</p>
<p>His sin is thinking beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6). The text does not say this, so Calvin makes God a liar.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a thorough article that goes through each of the five points of Calvinism, showing how Arminians and Calvinists both believe a false gospel: <a href="http://www.atruechurch.info/calvinarmin.html">http://www.atruechurch.info/calvinarmin.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Phil Gons</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-112</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Gons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 21:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/#comment-112</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments, Brian. I haven&#039;t studied Calvin&#039;s view on the extent of the atonement in enough detail to speak dogmatically, but everything I have come across seems to fit within a definite atonement framework, even if it is not as rigid as some later Calvinists like Owen.

I wonder what those who argue that Calvin held to general atonement would do with that quote that Nicole cites. Perhaps they would argue that Calvin changed his position. Any ideas? If you ever come across a Calvin scholar who holds that Calvin believed in general atonement and who comments on this quote, please let me know.

Thanks.

Phil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, Brian. I haven&#8217;t studied Calvin&#8217;s view on the extent of the atonement in enough detail to speak dogmatically, but everything I have come across seems to fit within a definite atonement framework, even if it is not as rigid as some later Calvinists like Owen.</p>
<p>I wonder what those who argue that Calvin held to general atonement would do with that quote that Nicole cites. Perhaps they would argue that Calvin changed his position. Any ideas? If you ever come across a Calvin scholar who holds that Calvin believed in general atonement and who comments on this quote, please let me know.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Phil</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://philgons.com/2007/05/titus-211-in-calvin/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 13:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I surveyed Calvin when I worked through the relevant passages on the extent of the atonement earlier this year. Even though I ended up on the Gen Atonement side, I was convinced by reading Calvin on these texts that he held to Def Atonement.

The closest support of Gen Atonement I found in Calvin were his comments on Romans 5:19:

&lt;blockquote&gt;He makes this favour common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God&#039;s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and John 1:29 (note the &quot;all without exception&quot; toward the end of the quote):

&lt;blockquote&gt;And when he says, the sin OF THE WORLD, he extends this favour indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled by him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But both of these quotes could be interpreted in a way consistent with Def Atonement, and since Calvin, contrary to what we would expect from a supporter of Gen Atonement, consistently interprets texts (like the two you noted above) consistent with Def Atonement, it seems to be best to assume that Calvin was consistent rather than inconsistent with himself.

To clinch things, Roger Nicole provides this quote from Calvin:

&lt;blockquote&gt;“I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins” (“On Partaking of the Flesh and Blood,” &lt;em&gt;Calvin: Theological Treatises&lt;/em&gt;, ed. J. K. S. Reid, cited by Roger Nicole, &lt;a href=&quot;libronixdls:jump&#124;pos=LLS-AOL%3A790%3CDIV41%3E.3266.0&#124;ref=vp.47.200&#124;res=LLS%3Ags_wtj_47&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;John Calvin’s View of the Extent of the Atonement,&quot;&lt;/a&gt; &lt;em&gt;WTJ&lt;/em&gt; 47:2 (Fall 1985): &lt;a href=&quot;libronixdls:jump&#124;pos=LLS-AOL%3A790%3CDIV41%3E.3266.0&#124;ref=vp.47.200&#124;res=LLS%3Ags_wtj_47&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;200&lt;/a&gt;).&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I surveyed Calvin when I worked through the relevant passages on the extent of the atonement earlier this year. Even though I ended up on the Gen Atonement side, I was convinced by reading Calvin on these texts that he held to Def Atonement.</p>
<p>The closest support of Gen Atonement I found in Calvin were his comments on Romans 5:19:</p>
<blockquote><p>He makes this favour common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God&#8217;s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.</p></blockquote>
<p>and John 1:29 (note the &#8220;all without exception&#8221; toward the end of the quote):</p>
<blockquote><p>And when he says, the sin OF THE WORLD, he extends this favour indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled by him.</p></blockquote>
<p>But both of these quotes could be interpreted in a way consistent with Def Atonement, and since Calvin, contrary to what we would expect from a supporter of Gen Atonement, consistently interprets texts (like the two you noted above) consistent with Def Atonement, it seems to be best to assume that Calvin was consistent rather than inconsistent with himself.</p>
<p>To clinch things, Roger Nicole provides this quote from Calvin:</p>
<blockquote><p>“I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins” (“On Partaking of the Flesh and Blood,” <em>Calvin: Theological Treatises</em>, ed. J. K. S. Reid, cited by Roger Nicole, <a href="libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL%3A790%3CDIV41%3E.3266.0|ref=vp.47.200|res=LLS%3Ags_wtj_47" rel="nofollow" class="liinternal">&#8220;John Calvin’s View of the Extent of the Atonement,&#8221;</a> <em>WTJ</em> 47:2 (Fall 1985): <a href="libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL%3A790%3CDIV41%3E.3266.0|ref=vp.47.200|res=LLS%3Ags_wtj_47" rel="nofollow" class="liinternal">200</a>).</p></blockquote>
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